Jesus' life before his birth
Jesus' life before his birth
Hi TJ,
I wrote up a blog entry on “Socinianism” or “Biblical Unitarianism” here: Jesus’ life before his birth.
I really don’t prefer those terms as the former points to a man, which they may also object to, and the later assumes that it’s Biblical right in the name. But that’s what they call themselves.
Anyway, I discuss this and point out a couple of the most glaring reasons why I cannot embrace it.
I wrote up a blog entry on “Socinianism” or “Biblical Unitarianism” here: Jesus’ life before his birth.
I really don’t prefer those terms as the former points to a man, which they may also object to, and the later assumes that it’s Biblical right in the name. But that’s what they call themselves.
Anyway, I discuss this and point out a couple of the most glaring reasons why I cannot embrace it.
Re: Jesus’ life before his birth
That was an excellent and compelling write-up, Jim! The passage from Philippians that you unpacked has always been the key passage for me personally on this topic, although you make an excellent case from Ephesians 4:9 and also asking about the purpose of the virgin birth if Jesus did not pre-exist. I would definitely direct others to your articles on these matters.
This may be outside of the scope of your study on this topic, but since you've spent a considerable amount of time researching this area, do you see any connection between the rejection of the notion of a prehuman existence for Jesus with a more general rejection of all or most things supernatural as described in the Bible? I note that many of the 'Socinian' or 'Biblical Unitarian' resources to which I've been exposed reject a real, personal Satan and even angels as spirit creatures. So I guess what I'm asking is, do you see the rejection of Jesus' prehuman existence as a consequence of trying to understand the scriptures in a supposedly 'more realistic' sense that may have gone too far?
I'd appreciate your thoughts.
This may be outside of the scope of your study on this topic, but since you've spent a considerable amount of time researching this area, do you see any connection between the rejection of the notion of a prehuman existence for Jesus with a more general rejection of all or most things supernatural as described in the Bible? I note that many of the 'Socinian' or 'Biblical Unitarian' resources to which I've been exposed reject a real, personal Satan and even angels as spirit creatures. So I guess what I'm asking is, do you see the rejection of Jesus' prehuman existence as a consequence of trying to understand the scriptures in a supposedly 'more realistic' sense that may have gone too far?
I'd appreciate your thoughts.
Re: Jesus’ life before his birth
Hi TJ, I'm so glad you enjoyed that.
Regarding your question, I noticed something similar at Trinities Podcast 44 – The Spiritual Journey of Sir Anthony Buzzard, where Sir Anthony Buzzard explains his journey from Armstrong's infamous church to the Christadelphians, who as we know deny not only Christ's preexistence but also demons and Satan. The later church is where he picked up denying Christ's preexistence. I think that's the only Unitarian church that denies demons and Satan. I had to look up if they believed in angels as spiritual beings, and I found that they believe that the word angels "nearly always applies to heavenly beings," and that "it can occasionally apply to human messengers." (http://www.thechristadelphian.com/angel ... online.htm)
Thus, I think the denial of Christ's pre-human life is an overreaction against Trinitarianism by reinterpreting Trinitarian translations of John 1:1 and 8:58 as not demanding Christ's preexistence, instead of seeing the Trinitarian (mis)translations of John 1:1 and 8:58 as the source of the problem.
Regarding Satan, I've noticed that some Bible scholars do something similar, pointing out that the serpent in Eden is not called Satan and that the resistor who seduced David into taking the census is not consistently called Satan, and that "Satan" appears late in Zechariah, and that Satan in the beginning of Job was a later addition (I'm not convinced of that). Christadelphians may welcome such appraisals as enjoying a measure of compatibility with their beliefs.
As to why Christadelphians deny demons, I think they've also gotten carried away by the ambiguity of "satan" as a person or as a resistor, and then applied that to all occurances--possibly as an overreaction against belief in a Satan over Hellfire.
Regarding your question, I noticed something similar at Trinities Podcast 44 – The Spiritual Journey of Sir Anthony Buzzard, where Sir Anthony Buzzard explains his journey from Armstrong's infamous church to the Christadelphians, who as we know deny not only Christ's preexistence but also demons and Satan. The later church is where he picked up denying Christ's preexistence. I think that's the only Unitarian church that denies demons and Satan. I had to look up if they believed in angels as spiritual beings, and I found that they believe that the word angels "nearly always applies to heavenly beings," and that "it can occasionally apply to human messengers." (http://www.thechristadelphian.com/angel ... online.htm)
Thus, I think the denial of Christ's pre-human life is an overreaction against Trinitarianism by reinterpreting Trinitarian translations of John 1:1 and 8:58 as not demanding Christ's preexistence, instead of seeing the Trinitarian (mis)translations of John 1:1 and 8:58 as the source of the problem.
Regarding Satan, I've noticed that some Bible scholars do something similar, pointing out that the serpent in Eden is not called Satan and that the resistor who seduced David into taking the census is not consistently called Satan, and that "Satan" appears late in Zechariah, and that Satan in the beginning of Job was a later addition (I'm not convinced of that). Christadelphians may welcome such appraisals as enjoying a measure of compatibility with their beliefs.
As to why Christadelphians deny demons, I think they've also gotten carried away by the ambiguity of "satan" as a person or as a resistor, and then applied that to all occurances--possibly as an overreaction against belief in a Satan over Hellfire.
Re: Jesus’ life before his birth
Hi TJ,
It's great having your consultation on this.
In re-reading my Appendix A Jesus’ Jerusalem Lamentations, I decided to elaborate further on two key turns of thought, to make it easier to follow. Specifically after Table 1 on two paragraphs before and after the first Gathercole quote. (I got those quotes from Mark Davis.)
It's great having your consultation on this.
In re-reading my Appendix A Jesus’ Jerusalem Lamentations, I decided to elaborate further on two key turns of thought, to make it easier to follow. Specifically after Table 1 on two paragraphs before and after the first Gathercole quote. (I got those quotes from Mark Davis.)
Re: Jesus’ life before his birth
Jim, that argument is quite brilliant! I'm definitely adding that to my notes.JimSpace wrote:In re-reading my Appendix A Jesus’ Jerusalem Lamentations, I decided to elaborate further on two key turns of thought, to make it easier to follow. Specifically after Table 1 on two paragraphs before and after the first Gathercole quote. (I got those quotes from Mark Davis.)
Re: Jesus’ life before his birth
Huh, I see the Christadelphian website I linked to above has been redone, with the page on angels missing. Weird. Maybe new management found it embarrassing. 